Notes from Town Hall meeting on Independent Learning
Wednesday, March 17, 1999
3pm – 5pm


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Quick links to:

  1. Opening remarks: C. Gaunt
  2. Opening remarks: F. Marsh
  3. Opening remarks: I. Filion
  4. Q&A: "What qualifies as independent learning... "
  5. Q&A: "Are you looking at everybody being able to do this..."
  6. Q&A: "I’d like to go on record saying I am independent learner..."
  7. Q&A: "I was hoping there might be a timetable for implementation announced..."
  8. Q&A: "One of the concerns I have, I think it starts form the way independent learning first came into Cambrian College, English1500...
  9. Q&A: "...as I look around with gray beard and long memories, know that 30 years ago the institution of community colleges...
  10. Q&A: "In the Nursing curriculum we chose to do model with strong independent learning component...
  11. Q&A: "I want to make a suggestion for how you might raise our comfort level..."
  12. Q&A: "We’re being told, change in funding is part of this, however one of the things I object to is head of Colleges, bowed down..."
  13. Q&A: "I think you need to separate thrust toward independent learning from need to save money..."
  14. Q&A: "This question has 3 parts....Questions that come from open letter to us about market analysis..."
  15. Q&A: "...I’m still not sure I have seen one effective use of web based learning where that learning is better..."
  16. Q&A: "Dancing around that issue of what we do as faculty..."
  17. Q&A: "How are you going to articulate this to the secondary school system?"
  18. Q&A: "I’m concerned about the support faculty and students will get from technical departments..."
  19. Q&A: "Where does it go from here...."

MODERATOR

Welcome to everyone, I don’t think I’ve ever seen this many faculty at once, I’m impressed.

I’m Carolyn Gaunt; you’ve seen my name on a lot of memos, nice to meet you all.

Frank Marsh and Ivan Filion

Just so we don’t get into doctor thing, it’s fine to use first names, keep it comfortable

Responding to some of the comments I have heard, I would like to say that it’s our meeting, not my meeting. I have volunteered to organize and facilitate the meeting; it’s our meeting, our issue. I would hope that people could see it that way. This impacts on each one of us. Feel free throughout the meeting to voice your comments and questions. In particular this town hall meeting is about questions and discussion. It is not a prefab meeting.

I’d like to thank the people who brought this together. Kathy Wagner, Carolyn Doni and Dianne Lajeunesse for their help. Colin Hayward, whose classroom we are using, as well as his students who set up A.V. and lights, back there volunteering, Mr. Andy Allan, coordinating sound. Emilio Falbo, thanks for the plants and tablecloth. DonMacEwan for audio and Greg Cooper for the original idea of starting this. Linda Macdonald is our notetaker, thank you to Susan Alcorn-Mackay for arranging for Linda to be here. John Closs and the LEC are sponsoring her to be here. Liz Scully is interpreting for us. Whitney for setting that up. The Faculty caucus and LEC for dragging you in here, Frank Marsh and Ivan for participating.

Some general housekeeping announcements. We will give the gentlemen a chance for opening remarks. I have questions to lead off the discussion, then we’ll leave questions to you. We ask that you use the microphones, 3-minute limit for questions, 4 questions in 3 minutes is fine. If you have a question and don’t want to use microphone, write it up and I’ll add it to the cue. We ask that you stick to independent learning focus for discussion. Today is focussed on open learning, recognizing there other topics that could be discussed, please save that for other forum

I invite Dr. Marsh to make his opening comments

Applause

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F.M.

Thanks Carolyn. And happy St. patty’s day to us all, great Irish music on 105fm this morning. Story: As you slide down banister of life may its splinters be in opposite direction. I would wish you happy St. Pat’s day, in Newfoundland it’s an important day celebrated along with others. We drink a lot of green things on a day like this, it is an official govt. holiday. I understand your traditions are different.

I agreed to be under 5 minutes. For me, this is a great opportunity, builds on info forums to keep people advised of corporate thrust of Cambrian College, directions we want to set, where to make investments, and initiatives to takes. This is more than that, one of the corporate thrusts is lifelong-learning, high quality standards and initiatives, impact of technology on society, what it is that we’re talking about today is requirements of the new-century learner and worker. Lifelong-learning, independent learning and modernization of instruction is very much imbedded in our measurements that we have to deal with (KPI), not gonna get way off track. One of the measurements we have to deal with is how our grads feel about college and their experiences here, how students here feel, and how employers feel about the preparation their employees have. The expectation is one of continuous improvement, that we listen to what we say. I didn’t do that bad a job on the public relations side, numbers were a lot worse than I thought, we will be reviewing through with each of the schools, I was less happy about it than what public relations said, mind you we have a bought for a year. We have to be concerned with our perceptions, what it means in the community, to people who would want to come to Cambrian College.

They are part of continuos improvement, they show it, independent learning, ability to learn on one’s own, work on one’s own, is built around new learner profile, what do they look like? Doesn’t look like me, looks more like my child who spends their time getting info in whole different climate than I spend. Mind, these kids are 2 years away from us, they got internet about 5 years ago, there are days I don’t like to go to computer room because they show me up so much.

I’m proud of how new learners have used technology, put it into their lives, expectations, and expectations of institutions in which they learn.

Second element is expectation on us that we have, are pedagogically ready and updated and that we provide improved instruction continuously, we need to continue to improve, embed changes occurring, be on the forefront of learning, of instruction and technology within an education system. Another aspect of that expectation is we’re a major enterprise in community, we need to be seen as a leader, people build on what they learn here and go out into society. That expectation is built on how we interact with community, how we assist them in improved place to live. Expectation that we are enterprise on leading edge is one we need to keep on forefront of our thoughts. It’s go to be holistic investment, not instant innovation, if you’re not familiar with theory, we went from library to resource center, just changed titles on doors, not anything else. That’s instant innovation.

We have to think about this as not instant innovation but plan of technological update. One of teaching, learning support, demonstration, assistance, peer mentoring, supports, endeavors, broad in terms of educational and academic directions, support for students as well. If we were gong to go academic direction, want one that is holistic in its approach, going at it together, the perceptions we give as an enterprise is what reflects in how students measure us, think about us and the perceptions they have about us.

Ivan’s paper tried to focus on lifelong learning, building it as an activity that students take on, we take on in support of it, a skill when students graduate, an ability they bring to the workplace, they become comfortable with it. thank you.

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I.F.

Well, most of you have probably read the 4, or 5 pages I spent quite a bit of time trying to write accurately, I won’t dwell on it. Based on some questions I received since that paper went out, I want to clarify something. Questions I often get say in our program we already do independent learning, our program can be exempt of this. I have to bring you all back to the purpose, dual purpose for initiative. The first one is in an ever changing world of new content, new approaches, exchanges of info far faster, far greater volume, practice as an industry new technologies changing rapidly. Every one of your students will recreate a whole new set of learning skills to maintain employability. Seems like a copout, if you can teach them what they need for the rest of their lives, let’s give them the skills to keep learning for the rest of their lives. I feel it’s a sound concept, I hope you do to.

Another issue is demographics of Sudbury, business we’re in. Cambrian College lives by its activity base. In Sudbury as northeastern Ontario, activity base is standing still or slowly on decline as far as high school population that feed our college, Cambrian College depends on that activity, a single source of clients largely. Puts us in very insecure position. Independent learning will do 2 things, allow us to continue teaching regularly in our classes, but also make delivery mechanisms more flexible, available to those who can’t come to campus, reach out to a larger market. Then we can access greater activity to secure employment. Let’s not forget the initiatives go together, important for students to graduate, we have to ensure they are independent learners. If we think about it in a polished way, the products, the elements of our curriculum for independent learning, would be topic of interest to those in workplace. We need to look at modules that can attract people in workforce

People in legal program, new statues to come out, those things l need to be developed for independent learning.

Please understand if your doing it already are those products already in format to be used for those not at Cambrian College.

Another question I didn’t answer in paper is about technological support, I think as a community, we’re past the point where we’re debating on-line delivery being useful. We tend to think it’s useful, something we should do somehow. Problem is we don’t necessarily know how, have mechanisms in place to get it done. That seems to be the element that isn’t secure, more than whether or not we should. Marsh spoke about investment plan, I’m sure that’s going to happen, I can give you some reassurance if some of you require computers, there will be a large purchase of computers in support. We are going to be investing in things like dedicated e-web server for academic use, technical people like dedicated webmaster to support products for clients. We also recently announced support for TEC, teaching excellence center, will be terribly important, we will collectively like to support, fund center to develop excellent teaching practices. In new millennium, some of the practices will need to involve education practices. Lead us through the skills needed to teach with these new tools.

Another area of concern, how do I put this on my SWF. I don’t have clean answer right now. To embark on independent learning has 2 premise behind it, 3rd isn’t behind it. I think it’s important students graduating have ability to continue learning by themselves, and if we can prepare products for greater learning markets I can secure greater employment with us. Not option to downsize faculty positions. Those positions are based on gross volume Cambrian College makes. If we can secure more activity we wouldn’t want to downsize. Current strategy’s problem is that each of us is taken up in front of classroom, in this new twist we want to change that a little bit, 10% to start off. We don’t all have to be in front of classroom, some of us from time to time can develop other products. I’m going to be looking at people to give us advice on SWF, campus community, deans, work out something good for everyone, the issue at hand is what we want to look like in the next 5 years, profile of Cambrian College. I’ll leave it at that to answer questions you ask.

MODERATOR

I’m going to lead off with questions. When you do come up to microphone, specify whom you would like to speak with.

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We would like to know what you see independent learning to be, what qualifies as independent learning, how you want this strategy to play out over the next few years, what are we targeting, what is the focus on web-based learning.

I.F.

I tried to apologize in letter when I used web-based and independent learning synonymously, I’m technically wrong in doing so, other methods of independent learning not necessarily web based. My sense is if we’re looking at what this initiative is all about, if we’re looking at having our folks prepare steps by which learner will teach themselves an outcome in our regular course outlines, that can be done, research essays used, group discussions, very few of those methods will drive the component of what this exercise is about, dispensing product to others, like those in workplace. Independent portion of program that includes part of getting people together and presenting at the end of the semester, that’s worthwhile but doesn’t seek out Cambrian College securing other markets. Nice thing about technology is whole world is being connected. Most pervasive standard platform to be able to communicate, build on culture of kids coming forward who are comfortable with computers, cybernetic environments. We do independent learning in number of ways, preparing some of our materials so students can teach themselves, so students can use html browsers, turn it over to independent learning, to client bases in Sudbury and across the world, like in Peru, Africa, China. No reason we can’t just continue going.

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MODERATOR

If you have questions now’s your chance.

Are you looking at everybody being able to do this, or a quarter of people and what kind of professional development supports this?

I.F.

The calculation I made was that we have about 1 hour in first year. I tell you that every student who takes post secondary program, should be able to read a little bit and complete an hour’s worth of course by themselves, baseline criteria for someone competent at higher learning level. Set standards straight when they get here out of high school. Do one hour of English and do something they’ve seen before. Then raise the bar. Instead of being taught, they learn by themselves. Give them support; see how they do. Nice to set the record straight for every first year student who walks in the door. By the time they walk out the door they all become self-learners. Can’t escape it. Lets’ say we continue in 2nd year with 2 hours, increase in 3rd year, looking at about 10-12% of curriculum moved over to web-based independent learning style. We’re about 210 teachers, 10% of curriculum represents 20 to 25 teachers, equivalent number of people involved totally in delivery of material independently. Faculty also need to be involved with students, assessments, evaluation, can’t talk to 25 and suggest they won’t do delivery, half of those 25 used to delivery independent learning modules, still leaves other teacher to help us deliver full-time material. Can continue dispensing education the way we did before, we prepare students the material, they learn it by themselves. Half of the people impacted by independent learning, at least half of them, 10 extra people, develop extra. People, don’t have to be 10 bodies, 50 people, 5, 1`0 hours a week working on modules, depend on their expertise and what market analysis says.

I want to say to folks who are comfortable teaching traditionally, fine, no one suggesting having teacher in front of students isn’t’ desirable. Other components required, one is teaching students to learn independently. What does that mean in terms of all of you, I’d prefer having people self-identify, some already doing it as part of their regular curriculum, we’d like to support everyone in the way they feel is best of each. If you would like to learn how to teach alternately we need those as well

F.M.

Point to take different, Ivan and I have slightly different expectations. He speaks on how we do this, instruct our students. I have expectations as that instruction we provide to our students takes advantage of resources available, so much new info on the web, new developments on weekly basis, there is so much new info, web has new impact on our lives. If you’re going on trip you can find out what temp will be like for next 5 days in the community you visit. That type of info is embedded in instruction our students get, so they understand info, resources. If your doing anything that has history geographic basis, the boundaries aren’t in the books anymore, more info in CIA’s website about countries, their development, population, than in any books we have, this would be embedded in resources we make our students aware of, that they use, broader base than we do.

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FACULTY

I’d like to go on record saying I am independent learner, when I walked in doors of Cambrian College in 82, I had no idea there would be computer on my office desk. I’ve learned those skills, haven’t taken course in computers. Should I go back to my university and say they didn’t prepare me for workforce? They gave me mindset to do this? Is there anyone here who isn’t lifelong learner? No one. I think we’re going in the right direction, but I object to the fact we’re not giving our students anything new. Ivan you’re lifelong learning, new things learned in past 5 years. As faculty member from English department I feel most abused(applause). Thank you for support. We were orphaned. Our new deans saw us as more work, weren’t welcomed into fold, we were foster child, I didn’t feel well taken care of, maybe not intentionally, my boss doesn’t know what goes in English. Before someone who has knowledge of what we needed, marking factor not appropriate for marking English. Dilemma where most managers are looking at numbers, they load you up with course. I’m at ratio of 1 to 178 students. I wrote letter saying this isn’t good, I don’t have time to get feedback before new tests; her response was your lucky, could have had 8 instead of 7 sections. We’re losing here. That has not been considered, not by Ivan, manger. I don’t blame my manager, I think she’s been pressured by upper levels, work them all to the max, quality thrown out the window. Increased classes, number of students, all reasons why independent learning hasn’t been as successful as it should’ve been in English component. Taxing on my time, I hired a housekeeper, I don’t do that I mark papers, I hired a tutor, the English teacher hires a tutor for her kids, these are the 2 techniques I’ve put in for survival. Students also have crosses to bear that I’m ashamed to say that I have never been a bare minimum teacher but this year I have been and the reason is that I can’t afford more marking with more students to give them more than what they deserve? Are we going to university mode of delivery, I think so. I welcome your comments.

Applause.

I.F.

Well, I can’t deny your workload’s increased, so is mine, dean’s, everyone at Cambrian College. Why those increased isn’t because we wanted them to, certain degree of high quality we want to maintain, with purchasing power we have. We don’t have that much money, cut programs down to 14 hours, 12 hours, not the answer. Missing the point. Learning resources out there that weren’t around when we were in school. I’m an independent learner, I’m not sure I commend a university for teaching me systematically how to be an independent learner. We suggest that we teach students how to do that, important skill they learn properly by themselves. If have to do that on a greater workload, we’ll do that, teaching students how to do that. Easier skills at learning independently, we should be able to teach them what we did haphazardly. I think workloads, have all gone up, not anyone I’ve spoken to who isn’t working harder. I’d like to dispel from my point of view that moving English teachers had something to do with creating problems. My sense is English teachers have good command of English language, each dept. will need to prepare material for learning kits, each dept will need to have good language skills. Integrate that each of you sees your role as important to this process. I feel badly that you feel you have a lesser role, my sense is you have a pivotal role.

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FACULTY

Ivan I haven’t disagreed with anything said today or heard said a few weeks ago, however I was hoping there might be a timetable for implementation announced today. I have a 286 computer on my desk. I want to know who to go to get something that works better, I have ideas I think that could be applied, who do I got to. Who are these people?

I.F.

I’ll try that. I think Frank will probably add a few comments, in fact he did announce today that we should try to buy computers between 70 and 100 this year, provide tools for this work. Move this room right across from my office, designed to be online courseware production unit, I don’t know exact people in there, didn’t want to make these decisions, many of these decisions would be taken in concert between academic and other staff.

Lets’ get on to a few deadlines, in dec. you were approached by deans to identify courses that could have modules for independent learning. We’re delayed on that, I have part of the criticism for not having communicated to all staff what’s going on, run awkwardly, I take the blame for that, what I’m thinking is that if every course, if faculty could go through all programs, look at 2nd, 3rd year, identify one hour component, that fits well with what we’ve looked at, that students could do by themselves, market attracted in work force, we‘re looking at May/June. I don’t have all the names of the players at this time, but I have a few you can speak to. You know Greg Cooper is on already GroupWise.

Claude Belcourt did it over inter-session, web CT being addressed, two so far to give a hand. We need people to self-identify and need departments to identify their programs. When you have those 2 parts we’ll provide support as soon as possible, for sure support in place for May-June period, I don’t have all the answers right now

F.M.

I’ll just add a few things, is it possible we could get this light turned off. I can’t see the group at all back here. So we want to talk about, ask Ivan and the info tech. Group to develop technology strategy force, part of that is re-engineering of systems in place, some problems with that, I find it too slow, need to be investment made there. This year high cost support we’re paying for mainframe systems, leases are up, we’ll take money saved form that and reinvest it quickly into desktop systems. We are going to support tech center, saw info on that today, in our view that’s a means of supporting through peers and other processes, assistance in education. Pd (staff development) center, I’ve asked Mary to take Pd center. Obviously people need access to technology, balance put in classrooms, or do you use strategy that integrates both? My view is first of all we need to make sure we have access, demo center, library, places where you make first investments, available to everyone, we take purchase strategy that upgrades at least half to one third of computers every year of three years. Then you need support and we’ll have in place prior to May the new demonstration center across from Ivan’s office. People there will assist. This is a new venture for a lot of people not comfortable with changing teaching strategies.

We are modernizing the classrooms from delivery point of view, 6 last year, up to 4 this year. We’ll increase technology level available to students as well. Part of our greater plan, type of budget we live in. Major part of base is on enrollment and applications attract student to increase grants. If we stay like we are we’re on declining circuit, if you look at market share we predict a decrease from high school. We need more students applying here an to keep them here, when we have exit of 400 or 500 students at Christmas, $1000 for every student that goes out, 300 students gone at Christmas $300,000 problem I have to solve. The year after that we get hit with gov’t grants, $1250/student, there. I’d rather be investing, I come from quality approach, I’d like to take that money and invest instead of pulling it out of things we’re doing. Get them in, keep them longer, we’ll make the investments.

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FACULTY

One of the concerns I have, I think it starts form the way independent learning first came into Cambrian College, English1500, people see this, it’s a takeaway from classroom, although you’re telling us that you want to attract students. It’s hard for me to understand when you reduce hours of contact with teachers, how you’ll improve quality and attract more students. I think you’re talking about investment in terms of rooms, computers, necessary, but we’re not seeing investment we feel is important in students. I think that’s getting lost in here. I’d like a response to that. We see independent learning as a takeaway. In 2nd year it’ll take away more hours from our programs, it’ll be difficult for us to buy into independent learning. If we see it as an add-on, there’s a possibility, but right now I haven’t been hearing that. I’d like a response to that.

I.F.

Do this on the cuff, 2 answers from us on that one.

Academically I think it has to do with value of teaching and learning. If we consider your roles as teachers, hours away form teaching, hour way from quality. If we influence our clients’ learning in period we have them, if we look at influencing their learning over their entire life, left human being with ability to learn by themselves.

I think there‘s a shift there in terms of thought. Are we teachers, I know you look at that skeptically as a way to get teachers out of classroom, I understand the viewpoint, don’t share it. I don’t think teachers’ number at Cambrian College is defined by number in front of blackboard, it’s a function of the business we attract. The more people we can touch with our products, skills, in workplace, at home, the better we do. The total number of people we can touch is what we need to look at, not what people numbers come into classroom.

Takeaway I’ve hear many times, considering coincidental events, layoff of any substance in academic learning I understand link between independent learning and that. Had to do with we weren’t balancing our budget, gov't weren’t allowing us to move forward, we had to do things simultaneously. Had to balance our books and do different things for independent learning. We would potentially have this year number of faculty who could assist in online course development, language support. Whereby if we had every teacher in front of classroom, how would we get thing linguistically correct. We don’t have the money. Job definition is going to change a little bit, not its worth.

F.M.

Thank you, guess if I could add thing is in terms of students. Once you move learning differently there’s an expectation students take on more of their own responsibility for part of their learning destiny. If we do and expect that, we need to put supports out there for access, infrastructure supports, investments we’ll make. Get me back to point made here, we’re all lifelong learners, we continue to learn but we are not under constant instruction, balance we play here, areas they really need instruction for and areas we can have different expectations. Important we identify resources and responsibilities students take on for themselves, plan I hear from what Ivan puts forth here.

Should we go into this without strategic supports for it? My view is it’s a fool’s game. Commitment I have from my board, that you have from me, we’ll make these types of investments, can’ t do it all immediately, but it will be done over period of implementation plan. Other point is that some of the students will need support. We learn in different modes. Should have at least 3 different ways to prepare info to present to students. Some will have grave difficulty if we don’t teach them the skills of independent learning and present the opportunities for it. Mentoring, peer tutoring support, things of that nature.

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FACULTY

Some of us, some very few of us as I look around with gray beard and long memories, know that 30 years ago the institution of community colleges may have been progressive thing. Technical education, hands on practical with 30 hours of instruction per week. Exciting time, came in with great hopes and expectations. I was excited about student that graduated in 70’s making $100,000+ as CEO. Programs shifted, 20 hours, 18 hours, some said we’ll do more with less, I tell you in chemistry you do less with less, I can’t send student home with expensive equipment for weekend. There’s been an erosion of quality of programs. Driven by money, reduction in grants from Queen’s Park. Here we are with another major shift. Is this driven by better education or money, and if the effect is dramatic reductions in the cost of teaching, and no obvious increase in instructional time for students, hard to see net benefit. If effect of changes was to increase learning time, reduce 15 hours of classroom time and at the same time have 15 hours of independent learning, I’d be happy with 50% classroom instruction, come up to 30 hours of instruction of years ago. That wouldn’t be bad.

There’s a lot of people, would agree, hard to get better source of info than new technology, but critical thinking not done better with computer than knowledgeable professional, even on info side. I tell you that if you have been checking weather for Newfoundland had worst snowstorm of season, wasn’t predicted. Have to be careful of how you select info, better likely to do that if you understand principles of subject and critical thinking. These are vital prerequisites to use computers and other tools of independent learning throughout their lives. It seems to me I got those skills, I know more chemistry than when I came out of grad school. I had principles and good instruction from university and other places.

I.F.

Thanks Cameron

I share your views in terms of frustration of not having same funding of 30 years ago. I’d go back to my own universities as well and see it’s been changes. I should point out that while we were getting an education they were cutting trees faster than growing them, once credit card is at limit you have to pay for it. Fact is we discussed this with deans. It was unfortunate that we did it least year, had we been able to increase to 30 hours of instruction, we’d still have independent learning. I’ve not heard anyone argue that learning by themselves and teaching that isn’t defensible. We are not taking teachers away, could’ve done cost reduction measure and delved into being fiscally more profitable. We didn’t look into a conservative approach at this point in time, looking at growing into this, see if it fits, leave our students with modes to component of curriculum that will help them learn for the rest of their lives. We’ll go to the max with the regular learning and give them additional component to help them learn when we’re not around, I think that’s valid.

F.M.

Ivan’s addressed the answer I’d give, I want to go back to the notion of principles. Take from principles, I’d concur with you, I learned more from teaching than I did from learning, I had to be prepared for the next day, the other is the access to good info. The difference in terms of micro-clients, I use OCM up to the minute, that’s a source of technology that allows me to do that. Other element is element of quality, what you see in terms of number of hours of instruction is not unlike what happened across country. What you needed to know to practice in field vs. what we’d like people to know. The other is what we’d like people to know to become accredited. If you have mechanisms of accreditation you should use them. External measure to tell you how you're doing. Leaving somebody establish these because it’s nice to know or because it’s written in textbook, but what is required by employers a field of expertise you’re going into. I expect to see thrust of accreditation, external bodies and meeting their demands. If we see we can’t meet their demands we should look at what we’re dong

I.F.

Cameron, you spoke to something interesting, when we visit website you’re not dealing with literature reviewed in any way. Questioning a source and critical thinking is necessary to sort out good info. If we’re going to use these tools we’re at risk of using them improperly. We need guideline s to ensure we use them well. I think TEC and academic divisional can improve that

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FACULTY

In the Nursing curriculum we chose to do model with strong independent learning component. This year we were not supported by this college, we believed in that. We have independent learning in study course, no lectures, no formal class, all work done on their own. We guide them in the preparation and those are independent study hours. Reading, videos, all done outside of class. We are proud of the program. However a class of 47 is going to graduate 24, I think that’s a whopping hit, students entering our doors were unprepared, university model learning. If we’re going to support this we’ll have to increase staff to provide students with supports, students entering with general level preparation, are not succeeding at independent learning model. Having said that, if we had resources to help them along, maybe they would succeed. My question is that we already have learning independent learning hours, not telling us that we have to add independent learning hours, adding them as website format rather than paper base, I’m fine with that. But if you’ve already had independent learning hours built in, I want assurance we won’t take second hit.

I.F.

I can’t give you assurance. There are 2 objectives I started off with. If your programs can ensure students learn skill of independent learning and delivery mechanism is compatible with exporting it to other markets your done. That’s why web-based one may be looked at. That's the way they’ll be done simultaneously. Smartly choose elements we can export to other markets.

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FACULTY

I want to make a suggestion for how you might raise our comfort level. If teachers can find a way to teach better we’ll move there. Pick some project and make it work right. I saw what happened in English. You’re trying to talk about something more positive than that, but we all saw the English example. A number of years ago, deans said if you as teacher didn’t develop independent learning packages, you weren’t going to work here long. People were going to be lifelong learners. I liked ideas.

If people can go at their own pace, they don’t finish. If college can take that, non-completers or late completers, consequences I’ve not hear you accept. If you find a project that works I’ll be happier. I went looking for independent learning package for calculus on net, I didn’t’ find anything with more than 1 or 2 hours of lessons. If there are examples of a major assignment, I didn’t fin d it. Everyone talks about web based period, I could do more in shorter period of time, I was unsuccessful at using that. That would also raise my comfort level.

I think you have to pick your objectives. I know nothing about marketing or market for calculus. When you start talking to me about marketing my product, don’t talk to me about being surgeon. I can’t do that either. Marketing is a field of expertise, I can’t move there without a lot of guidance.

One last suggestion, when you talk about teaching people to be independent learners. I haven’t seen a discussion on how to do that. It seems suggestion is that if you make up an independent learning package they will become independent learners. Maybe there’s another way to teach them. Maybe we have independent learning packages on independent learning. I don’t see that objective and proposal melding together. That’s another point of unease.

Applause.

I.F.

Why don’t I get any applause when I say things?

FACULTY

You don’t say the right things

I.F.

Discomfort levels are high, no question. We have help to provide you with additional resources. Maybe calculus is not course we should teach college student to do by themselves. Is hard to learn with a teacher. Maybe calculus isn’t course to look at. I know teachers have contacted publishers, publishers become more holistic, kit providers, providing websites. They’re probably out there to find.

I’m not going to accept your offer to find a project. I’m suggesting here a few concepts, teach students how to learn by themselves. Don’t ask me, you're the practitioners, how are we supposed to teach our students. We need to make sure this is a collaborative effort, not one where management comes out with all the answers, not the strongest solution. Let’s try to find in our core programs, the modules we think can be best offered in this model.

Lets’ get people who’ve done independent learning, web based delivery, let’s promote our champions, seek guidance, get them involved. I’d suggest they be part of this unit that develops courseware.

As far as our efforts with English, when we started with this, we said this is the first take at doing something different, everyone knew that we wouldn’t have the best product. We improve on it. Every year. First time you taught a course was probably worst delivery of that, every year you improved. It’s about adopting a new culture, everyone improving in same direction. I’m not expecting high levels of proficiency, I expect up to 5 years, a new skill set that we wouldn’t have if we didn’t have the courage to try that

Applause

I’ll pay her later

FACULTY

She just wants a new computer

If you get the first new one we’ll know why

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FACULTY

We’re being told, change in funding is part of this, however one of the things I object to is head of Colleges, bowed down, meet with miserly bit of money handed to use, I object to that. Why are leaders of education, at colleges, not screaming and stamping? Is there any kind of objection or do we bow our head and say yes master. If we want better educated students give us the money so we don’ t become 3rd world. I change presidents of colleges, and all colleges to get off, scream, make some noise, say we want more money, ask for it, beat them over the head and get it, so we can do it. We can retain students. We know how. We’re good teachers, proud of what we’ve done, not proud of some other things. The implementation of program was too soon, not enough time, resources, told to do it with no money. Talk to every person in business about making change with no money, ludicrous. Asking for something in too short a time, no resources, and be proud of it? We know what happened in English wasn’t good, too fast, not enough consultation with good faculty. They felt overlooked. Others are afraid of that, don’t want to be told to do something impossible. We need to be brought on board philosophically, be heard. We didn’t feel that way. We feel that isn’t the right place. Students are under-prepared. If you want the change, to be real and effective, you need to ask the experts and we are. You said do this way. Our hands were tied. We also need mechanisms for feedback for students. Evaluate changes, time, money and resources to do that properly. I don’t see it happening. Concerns of people here, we don’t want decisions made where we weren’t consulted. We face hostile students not getting what they want. We care about the students. Every teacher I know works their butt off, I’m trying to deliver to students in 2 hours what I used to have 4 hours for. That makes me angry. Cambrian College has done nothing to deal with our feelings around the change. If you want this thing to work you need to see us as people and treat us that way.

Applause

I.F.

You’ve got 2 people standing in front of all of taking degree of anxiety, taking it openly. Faculty have been provided with the academic divisional. Policies put forth done with consultation, providing peer supports in teaching excellence, far less attached to what done wrong in the past than what we’re doing right now. We’re all learning what we have to do, going through hard times, instead of trying to asses this based on past practices, assess if this is right in principle. We don’t want to fail students, have them drop out, discriminate between those who can do independent learning and those who can’t. We want to know entry skills of our students.

Trying to get more finessed, polished, want corporate buy-in. We’ve never had global vision of where we want to be in 5 years, I don’t see the value of slamming that based on 3 or 4 years ago. Keep them attached to us based on product we have, secure more students. Satisfy employers. What is wrong with that for future?

F.M.

I’d like to address the question of presidents’ role. Advocacy on behalf of colleges. From council of presidents, regularly they push gov’t for increased investments, ACAATO has this high on agenda. This year I’ve had about 12 cabinet ministers to this place, I don’t bring them in to just have lunch. There’s a strategy, get to them when they’re making budget decisions, on a regular basis that’s what we do. We meet regularly with ministers in Toronto, get them out to dinner, push them on initiatives. All the funding areas we do follow up with industry partners.

We must realize we are part of a three-part process that got the bottom cut out of it. The first one was health care, second social services, third was post-secondary education. Drive around in ambulance all night long, Monty python, if that’s what’s happening in health care, you get a better scream than a group that’s 17th on list of public priorities, next is people have go to eat, need support, MP

Colleges are important to economy, seen that in Maclean’s. New report released on Thursday of next week, developments to Ontario economy, we’re expecting that colleges will be well placed there , it was done by advocacy of a group of us to get it on the agenda. We hope that out of that will come gov’t investment.

Second thing that I think we’ve already told you, some investments I’m prepared to make. Change in education have process, 7-year diffusion process, don’t have that time anymore. We need to move quickly. Target investments, not a lot of money to invest.

Other thing is in terms of buy in. I don’t change what happens inside your classroom. You are the person whose there, who makes the changes. It’s not my job to set what happens inside your classroom, it’s yours. We will be successful as college if you make these investments in what you do. It is important we have this 2 way feed. I try to keep you informed of what I do, what happens at college. We’ve had it here, we’ll have at least four more with me and hopefully over the period we’ll grow into something well recognized, for quality, for what we do, as leader for next century in community and abroad.

Applause.

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FACULTY

I’d like to say a few things. I think you need to separate thrust toward independent learning from need to save money, two aren’t necessarily compatible. I don’t think you teach students independent learning by giving them stuff to do on their own. I find when I give them to do something on their own I spend more time, deal with them independently, I think it’s important to teach them independent learning. I don’t think saving money and independent learning is compatible. I think students coming to colleges are less able to do independent learning than those at university, I think we do teach them to learn independently. When our students come in first year, when I see them in third year I give them more material in less time, they are learning to do independent learning. I think it’s a good idea to put stuff on the web where appropriate. But you’re making faculty nervous. If I do any independent learning in course you’ll zap my hours, I have that here from what happened in English, want some assurance that wouldn’t necessarily happen.

Applause.

 

I.F.

Web based delivery isn’t here to cut costs, it’s here to increase revenues, other way to balance budget. I think by the time we look at revenue we’ve got, that determines capacity of how many of us can work. We then decide how we want to divvy up our work. We want to be caught up in teaching with students and still have time to find methods for growth. Do we think it‘s valid to have some of us to pay attention to future markets and opportunities. We only have single market and shortcoming in future growth. Even though you are doing independent learning delivery, you’ve got make sure the independent learning delivery you do helps us grow into new markets. There’s no way I want to disrespect the wonderful job everyone’s doing teaching students independent learning, but on the corporate agenda it’s dual, make sure students learn independent learning and that we have resources to be exported to other markets

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FACULTY

This question has 3 parts.

Divide question into part a, b, c, first one is worth 2 marks

Questions that come from open letter to us about market analysis

I’m wondering if market analysis in your vision will be done program by program, discipline by discipline or how.

Second part is I’m wondering how expensively you view external vs. internal stakeholders, graduate students, current students, advisory committees, focus groups. Thoughts around that?

Final part is, I’m wondering how main course for Sept. 99 lines up with implementation of market analysis

Applause

I.F.

That’s a tough one. Our first approach was to ask people program by program to see what we could repackage. We thought it’d be useful to say that every student no matter what course they’re in has demonstrated ability to do independent learning. Help them secure jobs, impress employers, I don’t mind though, value in doing it cluster by cluster, seeing if there are commonalties, probably a wise way of doing that.

Balance first few years of doing this, which programs can easily be done and which ones need more investment and skill set, delay putting that together because we’re not there in terms of skills to do that. I’m not sure how far we can go. I think we should talk it out, to as many people as possible

Lost 2 marks, can still get 4 out of 6

Internal and external stakeholders. I think if you stay with internal you’ll fail, you need to talk to the market. Many of you are, whoever’s doing placement, faculty should keep doing placement to keep them in touch with markets. You should have some contacts already. Strength of our college system, through advisory committee and placement contacts, address question of what those folks want. My sense of you is you’re connected enough with industries that you do know what people want, if you don’t have a clue, I’m concerned.

My last comment is portions of courses, what we’d like to do I assume, trying to drive critical mass of people that can be detached from having in front of classroom, Research & Development unit at college for new markets. I think at this point in time we don’t want to go too far down that road. We don’t have expertise and we value classroom education. I was talking about 10%, can’ t throw independent learning product out there and expect students. But may not mean as many as strictly classroom, maybe 5% can be assigned to R&D unit of college. No large corporation can survive without research of product, isn’t long term.

MODERATOR

We’re moving closer to 5opm

Dave, Bob and Greg and then we wrap up

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FACULTY

I could stand here for a while but I’ll hit the highlights. My first comment is I’m a faculty member who has done as much as everyone, after trying various things, I’m still not sure I have seen one effective use of web based learning where that learning is better than traditional classroom method. And if you have some concrete examples?

I can see various ways in which web-based is good as an add-on, but I’m not convinced I see it as better, different and add-on yes, but not necessarily better. Give some examples you're familiar with where students come out better than old way.

Other comments. I heard in the meeting held last week that college management wanted to, didn’t come from you directly accept my apologies if I misquote, wanted faculty to develop web-based independent learning, on volunteer basis, I don’ t mind volunteering for things, if students were going to get something in addition. Made comments, not planning on laying off teachers, I would like to believe you but I wonder if we have a new government or a new minister, new economic crisis, that what may happen 2 or 3 years down the line, budgets get cut15% again, in that case I’m afraid you’ll say we had good intentions but we have these course packages already, so, …..questions of job security. I’m not sure there’s a firm guarantee.

Third comment is I seriously think that the way to approach this would be to develop a small number of well done projects. Rather than get everyone involved, identify a few areas where college has various resources and abilities to do a good job and sort out problems in web based learning, I’m not sure teaching some programs over the web is useful maybe mining, geology, metallurgy, where we have resources and it fits in the economy of Sudbury, we do that well, college could market that internationally, rather than do a little of everything.

My last comment is it’s essential colleges provides resources and support to faculty who try this. My course is set up as web base, I have to host it on my own domain. My own server, that shouldn’t be the case. I’ve asked people in info system, given answer of we’ll get back to it, semester’s half gone.

As I said before, I’m of 2 minds, it could assist our students, but I have a number of concerns, if you answer one question only, if you see one example where web based learning was more effective.

**

I.F.

There’s number of website I’ve visited, example post-secondary education teachers have their own website here and in the USA. They’ve got a statement that says if you use it properly it can be an effective learning tool. I think if it isn’t you’re missing the point. Single parents out there not accessing an education. People out there who will be entering senior positions. If we start off slow doing a reasonable job we will grow into excellence. Also seen reports where retention time of CD-ROM material is better at times then that of classroom presentation. Can repeat it, measured retention time in both methods. I can locate those things at later date.

Volunteerism and job security, let me explain that. Volunteer in the sense that we won’t need everyone. We said 10%, I would rather have academic division where people who consider this a useful priority professional identify themselves, help us out, we’ll help you out, I find that far more respectful than to pick people out. You may not be interested, you may want to contribute differently at college. If you think it’s a valid cause identify yourself.

In terms of job security there’s a flip side to that, what happens if gov’t reduces their funding more, I can guarantee you that if we get more funding reduced, every classification at Cambrian will suffer job loss, not just faculty. In event you lose your job, don’ t you think you’re more marketable if you can prove you’re adept with modern technology can teach traditionally and alternately? I though job security was having as much skill as possible, we want to help everyone who wants to acquire a new skill set.

Limited number of projects, lower enrolment from high schools, if you think we can improve these things while moving into this, one thing at a time, slowly, I think that would promote more job insecurity than doing it at an aggressive pace. It would be very crazy to suggest tot all of us to do this without making strategic investments. We need to discuss this, we need to decide what we’ll do this, than what programs, how, We’re looking for that cooperation

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FACULTY

Dancing around that issue of what we do as faculty. I want to focus on what Judy alluded to. Who is the average learner? I have an issue to show you. 7of us in my family, all involved in education, daughter student at Laurentian, son college student, wife in college part-time, other two in school. I’m a family of independent learners. What if my student can’t spell, can’t turn computer on, is lacking skills in reading and critical thinking, new wonderful students coming into our classroom, I don’t buy that.

Who said these students don’t have independent learning skills. They do have critical learning skills, have record and reputation of program I’m in. I resent the fact you say they don’t have the skills. Have you thought about average student coming into college system, what program have you discussed with secondary school education system to ensure they’re prepared of us.

Other thing is that you’re saying you will market our programs externally, mining occupation has average of 21 years service. Whole industry will turn over the next 10 years. Market just isn’t there, which destroys the market. I’m saying we should focus on the student coming into our system not responsible, don’t spend time, don’t learn so well themselves,

I.F.

Flip side of that one Bob, is if these students over years were taught traditionally and can’t think by themselves, I ‘m not sure what we’re trying to defend as our system at this time. You’re playing into my hand in terms of suggesting what we have isn’t worth defending. We’re defending status quo. You mention that the graduates don’t have those skills.

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FACULTY

How are you going to articulate this to the secondary school system

I.F.

Making references to the fact that these students aren’t the best for independent learning. We’ll do assessment of these students and remedial learning. My sense if the young adult coming into institution of higher learning in developed country should be able to learn one hour of material by themselves. What are our standards. 12 years of education will we concede the fact that they can’t learn by themselves. We should suggest that is the standard. Industry want them and it will be required even if they come from college. Work pace won’t care where they were educated, want them working on the job as well as anyone else. It speaks in favour of doing this. In terms of mining industry, roll-over because of demographics, those folks may not be retire from their jobs, may want to start their own firms, acquire another set of skill apart from mining, and will have young folks moving into senior positions more rapidly than in the past, fewer people there, less chance to leave work place and come for training. Market for these products if we can free up a few of us to do this.

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FACULTY

Carolyn, you were very gracious host at the beginning, quick to thank everyone. I’m sure everyone agrees with me when I say thank you for putting this together.

I’m concerned about the support faculty and students will get from technical departments at Cambrian College, specifically network problem resolution. I think of my short story, this past year faculty were trying to use the web in their teaching, I was trying to use it as a simple supplement, least complicated technology form, use a website in the classroom as lecture tool, and I had a lot of problems. Things worked sometimes, they don’t try to get the problems resolved, mixed success. Bombarded frequently with e-mails from students who didn’t know what was going on. My concern is that the culture you speak about isn’t as high priority as other thrust. Problem-solving resources don’t seem to be as high a priority. Technical solutions or other ones don’t seem to be forthcoming when you need them.

The kind of thing I’m interested in doing, I’m interested in doing this. I’m trying to help a few faculty, but in good conscience I can’t be part of process that helps faculty take first step down that isn’t a journey of lifelong learning, but takes them to edge of cliff. I guess I need to know, be reassured that when it comes to things like network services, what’s going to be done differently, how is culture for the support for this going to be done?

Applause

F.M.

I’d like to answer first part of your question, what I’d say to you is one of the areas in my view is we’re institution about learning, one of the problems we find in terms of broader directions of how people’s efforts get placed, they lose track of what our real responsibilities are. In my view we were scrambling to keep the systems up and no supporting instruction that these systems are used for. Shift into academic division. Not their role to keep my system up, that’s secondary to classroom. Re-engineering strategy to throw back into Ivan’s lap, types of supports we have inside here that we weren’t using. We are teaching. When we’re not using HTML to the best advantage to support our own system. Look at the whole level of resources, see if we can use the people we’re training, instead of fixing my email. Re-thinking of how the info systems will work. The other part of that is the speed of the system. We recognize that it’s slow, we’ll make that investment into the short term, prior to third semester. I can assure you.

The other types of supports we have from instructional point of view, already started moving down that road. Intent to make these things happen, move broadly, focus on instructional side.

I.F.

I knew you would ask this question. I’m gong to add a few think instruments pleasing to folks to hear. We’ve spoken about some consultation mechanisms to articulate and deal with problems collaboratively. I look at academic division, problems brought forward to enhance services. College council to look at college wide investment policies, voice our concern, highlight where we should invest our money. Change Computer Planning Committee to Co-ordinating Committee. Managers from Info Systems who have college-wide committee to address issue and attached to that will have academic and administrative user groups. Before we didn’t have managers of IS in charge of planning process, can hold them accountable to a degree in next year’s budget trying to bring more technical resources to IS, like more dedicated web master. You seem to support that position. Also purchasing a dedicated academic webserver, 300 to 500 extra users. At least we’re looking at paying for 1mb/second (Surenet), not that much more expensive to go to 2mb/second (fiber optic line). Placing more computers in library. I think faculty will need to be involved with this. Those are the types of investment priorities I can announce to you today. Many may occur before May-June. I don’t know what else to tell you.

The past, I can’t say we haven’t had problems in terms of technical infrastructure. We’ve never had focused vision on how to use this resource to our advantage teaching. Some of us do this in spite of the college, some using their own IS providers. Not that college doesn’t want to, until now there was no vision to follow. Again, not as much a matter of disregarding potential of future based on past experiences. We’d like to do this, let us know what you need and how to do it, be part of solution. I think we suffered from not having vision in part, investment in a lot of areas that diluted. Funnel investment in areas that have gains for all of us

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FACULTY

I think this has been an interesting process. Where does it go form here, and what do we do in September?

I.F.

Led perfectly into wrap up. This is you’d read the letter, suggested what should happen, hoping we can get the show on the road quickly. I’d like to see a continuation for students already on this model, like to have something for them for second year. If they have something for first year, have something of them as they progress. I’m asking all of you to support this. The skill sets you acquire of the next little while can help us package other products for other markets. If we don’t have that, then someone’s going to have to come up with something to access other markets that I can’t see. Where does it go from here? Pick up the ball dropped in Dec. when we tried to go through programs to see which were suitable for this initiative. Pick up the ball there with your depts. This will continue to be important item with academic division, it drives what I consider important. If you have any questions, get to your reps, express your views. Other place to pick up the ball, TEC will be created shortly, likely will be asked to help develop this excellence in developing material for web-based delivery. Those are your three, departments, divisional, and TEC as a possibility

 

When deans have same message as you. Problem that occurred when deans came to you in Dec. It appeared message folks got from me was different from deans, I think it was miscommunication. I think you got a letter here from me that we’ve all read, I did that in writing for you. Secondly. I think we’ll have to report back to the deans on what happens, I suspect we’re moving forward with some form, those of you who‘d like to embark on this, discuss it with me, your deans, we need for you folks to be able to help out.

MODERATOR

Thank you all for coming out. Thank you to Linda, typing away diligently. Thank you to Liz who’s scooted. Thank you Ivan and Frank. Notes will be posted, made widely available, to deans as well, to faculty members who couldn’t be here. Watch for follow-up activity. Discussion is not over, common base for further discussion.

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